Modeless (continued)

A few posts back I shared the "Small Project Myth" the main topic being Revit's highly related object based system ensures even the smallest pieces of functionality can create many questions that need to be explored making them less small.  Modeless properties wouldn't be considered small from the start yet if small features aren't small are medium/large features proportionally larger still?

I'd like to share/explore some additional aspects of this hypothetical feature.  Follow the white rabbit....

"Dummy" Elements and "Rubber Banding"

A "Dummy Element" is an internal term for the element you are about to create.  To summarize: When you enter a command you can often continue to access properties.  Edits made at this time will affect the element you are about to create - the system presents a "Dummy" until a real instance exists.  Not all elements have had dummies since the beginning and some elements still lack them (e.g. Grids).  We are always trying to make progress on this and if properties were more visible the gaps will also be more visible.

Continuing...

If we have modeless properties then properties of the element to be created display whenever the tool is active.  Now when you draw a wall with chain enabled and the second wall is rubber banding the previous wall is technically selected.  With a wall about to be created and one selected which wall do the properties apply to?  My first thought is consistency should rule.  The properties should apply to the wall to be created just as it was when you started the tool.  The the rules would be:

• When an editor is active properties control the item to be created
• When Modify is active the properties apply to the selected element

"Sketch Mode"

Another place to look for additional special conditions are modes.
As mentioned in the previous post when the Modify tool is active and there is no selection we could display properties of the active view.  This received some positive comments in the last post. Is this as valuable in sketch mode?  An alternative design could display the properties of the sketch instance.  For example when editing a floor sketch if you select a sketch line the properties of this line are displayed. When nothing is selected the properties of the Floor are displayed.  These may be more desired than the view properties.  Would this be viewed as inconsistent or would the different behavior be accepted and even appreciated when in this different mode.

If anything is unclear I'll follow up in the comments.  Lets keep the previous discussion going a bit more.

_erik

Comments

[Tim Waldock]

In the overall scheme of things, the lack of dummy properties for some categories is a minor irritation. Nice to fix but don't let it hold up more important stuff.

For rubber-banding, we'd prefer the properties to be displayed for the element about to be placed, not the one just placed.

In sketch mode, we'd definitely want the properties of sketch instance to display, not the view properties. Most of the time we forget to check the sketch properties before finishing the sketch, meaning that you have to backtrack to change them afterwards. A classic example of this is when drawing a shaft opening, the height extents are often set to be outside the extents of the current view, so when you finish sketch it disappears. You have to either "undo" to go back and check what height limits it had, or else go searching in a 3D view.

[Anthony Hauck]

Thanks. The example is especially appreciated. Feedback on a real task is very helpful in evaluating different designs.

[Joel Osburn]

100% agree w/ Tim.

For modes, I would expand behavior to be consistent in the family and mass editors, as well, and here again, current instance in editor would be useful. For consistency's sake, in Revit proper it may be good to NOT have view properties display when no selection set exists, or action is in progress.

[David Baldacchino]

I agree that when you're simply in Modify mode with nothing selected, it would be convenient to show the View Properties.

As to sketch mode, I would want to see the properties of the object I'm sketching and also those of the object itself. In some cases, such as roof sketching, there are only a couple of properties that pertain to the sketch line (slope and offset). These are already displayed as part of the Options bar, so unless this is going away, I think it would make more sense to show just the object's properties instead. Another preference of mine would be to show the view properties of the selected view/s in the Project Browser. If multiple views are selected, only the common properties are displayed.

Another solution could be to have a tabbed properties dialog, but instead of having to click on the tab to activate the different properties, you would just hover over and it activates automatically. All in the sake of reducing mouse clicks!

[Robert]

While in "Mode(s)" Making properties to display that are relevant to the object(s) the mode is affecting would be useful, and also reduce "clicks". When sketching a ceiling, it would now be much quicker to set height, when sketching a finish floor object it would be much quicker to offset it relative to the floor level/structural floor. When editing a group, it would be faster to name it, or rename it, etc. It is interesting to note (IMHO) that it seems like architects are the ones most often dealing with additional modes, particularly "sketch mode". I realize structural does some, but MEP also never has to deal with sketching, their only modes are for dealing with Systems, etc.

[DoTheBIM]

I'm not a big fan of seeing view properties when nothing is selected. There's a lot of time when nothing is selected and I don't want to see view properties all the time. I say ditch that idea and just make view properties more easily accessible when one wants to invoke them. Now when a view is selected in the browser... then populate the properties browser with view properties. Same goes for family mode, sketch mode etc. I think this makes more consitency and makes more sense to the user and computer... maybe.

This idea might make different behaviour for different modes go away... possibly?... hopefully?

I'm agreed on the first point about creating elements that the properties should NOT display the last element... seems like a no brainer. I'm not sure how anyone could draw logic to validate any other behaviour.

Like the idea of sketch mode properties... display the properties of the object about to be created when nothing selected. Only display the view properties when the view is actively selected in the browser or invoked by the user.

On a slightly different mode. family mode. Trying to keep consistant. View properties Only when selected in browser or invoked. sketch mode propeties as above and display family properties when nothing selected. project environment gets nothing displayed if no selection or if consistency reigns... display the project properties.

There's another use case that I can't quite put my finger on at the moment but... seems that it was something similar to while in family mode... creating a sketch of something, I wan't to change the family properties to reflect what I'm thinking while in sketch mode without having to undo all my sketching, etc. by clicking cancel... ahh that's it... I make a sketch in project or family, click finish and Revit says no can do. I know what's causing the problem even though Revit is vague on what the problem is... So I want to fix it prior to finishing the sketch. Can something be done to allow fixing a problem to make a sketch work prior to finishing/canceling a sketch? I realize this is kind of vague at the moment but maybe someone knows what I'm talking about and can explain it better.

Love this discussion. Keep it coming Erik.

[Aaron]

During the create command, the Properties button (as mentioned by everyone else) should control the object ABOUT to be created. How to deal with the object JUST created is simple: As it is now. IF you are in the chain command, it never selects the properties of the element just created. Even with a single Escape to Exit Chain and remain in command.

I think when you are in SKETCH or a CREATE mode, the Properties dialogue box needs to cover a FEW bases:

1. Properties of the object you are creating, of course. But also, properties of the lines in the sketch. Eave offsets, Base offsets, slope definitions/values, etc. I could even see THIS aspect as a "minor" properties dialogue box that just pops up when you select a line in the workspace itself (like when you select text in Word, and the B/I/U show up right near the word so you dont have to mouse travel back to the ribbon...).

I am of the opinion that View Properties SHOULD be shown when nothing is selected, for the reasons mentioned in the other post: When you need properties, its a 50/50 selection that you need VP. If NOTHING is shown be default, you now have 100% chance of having to select something first. Given that for a selected element you have to select anyway, covering the OTHER option automatically means automatically more efficiency. Unless, of course, VP was its OWN modeless dialouge box that could remain consistant. That would be my preference.

If these could auto hide so much the better. (As an example, im in a project right now, and im editing the properties of a wall, but the portion im affecting is outside of the view range. If i had my way i could edit the view range of the view while im still in the properties dialogue of that wall. Its minor, but its efficiency efficiency efficiency. Now im hitting OKAY, OKAY (arguably this one OKAY could come out of the Instance and Type properties buttons were actually seperate, but having them in the samw button in a menu means out of habit i go for instance first since i dont want to stop and think about the silly dropdown), Right click, VP > View Range > adjust, OKAY, OKAY, reselect, Properties... THEN make my edit. Then when im done, of course, i have to go BACK to VP to put it back.

I totally agree with DOTHEBIM as well, and i broached this in the other post. We NEED NEED NEED the ability to get OUT of modes, when something is wrong.

Consider the following example: When we create a room, and its boundaries are suddenly broke, the room still exists, and it warns you. But you dont have to fix it immediately. I go in to a floor/ceiling, and i edit the sketch, but i screw it up. I have to FIX IT OR CANCEL. In much the same way, i would love if the ceiling disappeared, but a fragment stayed at the center of the room, with a warning attached. When that fragment was selected, the MODELESS PROPERTIES dialogue box could have values that no longer work in RED. (This could be true for families with bad parameter values too.) If a doors constraints dictate it cant be shorter than 4 feet, and its currently drawn at 5, but then i change it to 3... It should stay at 5, turn red EVERYWHERE, and in its properties box it should WARN you it is broken. It shouldnt just delete or cancel.

Now, in the spirit of your post on "little" problems, i realize this is a HUGE problem: What do you do with plotting, schedules, exports, etc? Should "broken" elements plot or export? Should the schedules report bad values? Or "broken?" Again, i would point to Rooms. Except i would change every value to a "?". Imagine if you went to a floor plan, and a door tag was showing a "?" instead of the mark value... You would know something was wrong.

[Kal]

Hi Erik and all,
This is a nice discussion indeed!
In summary I like most of the ideas posted especially Tim and Aaron in his comment he touched a point that several "managers" are asking for quite a while, more control and better Quality Control, what make us move from CAD to BIM is a better control over our projects, so the more flags we can get the better we can act at early stage. The modeless dialogue box for properties become a necessity with more interaction between the elements/objects/families in in a particular view. We know from other Autodesk Pacakages the impact on computer resources of a modeless box especially with Revit Platform due to its nature (database), may be the factory should find a way to minimize this impact, now must of us (at least in the architectural field) moved to a 64 bits firms Box so we can manage better memory access. And we have to sympathize with the rest of 32 bits users (the majority)! in summary we should have it as a floating palette like in dead cad for the layer manager properties with an extension of flags (question marks or alert marks) that something is wrong in the element/object/massing/families...Thanks for listening Erik.